IDFA Ottawa Classic - October 30th, 2010

If you are natural, then yes....2-3 lbs will be OK, even that is low...IMO....If not natural, then id be quitting if you can only add 2-3 lbs of muscle in a yr...Especially at this stage of the game, meaning very early as it is only comp.#5.....
people saying only 2-3 lbs is crazy talk, get out there and bust hump.....
Everything else you wrote steved, i agree with......But not the 2-3 lbs.......No way...My girl has added more than that this yr.....
I dont talk crap, if i write it, believe it, it will be proven.... ;^)

I can speak for all naturals out there that if you gain 3 pounds per year, (after the first 5 years) you are doing exceptionally well.

I am not talking putting on 20 pounds over the xmas holidays. I am also not talking about testing it using calipers, or hydrostatic testing, or other methods. I am talking on stage body weight.

Let's use me as an example. At age 20, I would compete at about 140-142, not really ripped had I beed ripped, more like 132. By age 25 I was 149 and really ripped. So I am guessing in those first 5 years, I gained at most 20 pounds. I shouldn't say first 5 years since I was training fairly consistent since age 16 or so.

Since then, I've gained another 12-15 pounds. I am 30. So I've put on 30 pounds of muscle in 10 years. Looking back to my progress throughout the years, you'd be silly to think I didn't have success in building muscle. If you think 5 pounds is more realistic than that puts me on stage at 182 shredded as a natural athlete.

I'll tell you right now that that would be impossible.

I will go as far as to say someone not natural would have a good year adding 5 pounds of quality muscle (again, stage weight muscle from the previous year). If I am wrong, then why is it that every year, the good guys are falling in the same weight classes? The only ones moving up are showing up soft, or just starting out. After a few years, yearly differences are only tweaking weaknesses, and getting better conditioning..NOT adding 10 pounds of true muscle.

There may be an exception to the rule, but 5 pounds is a really good gain for ANYONE in a year, natural or not. Unless of course you're talking about a natural turning into a non-natural...Then you'll see a nice jump (but then again...I would call that year 1, after that you won't see 15 pound jumps anymore).

I dunno...this type of thing just frustrates me. I hear it way too often. People overestimate how much they can gain in a years time. If I can gain 5 pounds per year for the next 7 years, that puts me over 200 pounds at 5'6 ripped. But I know its not happening.

I can agree that one wont be gaining 7-8 lbs of muscle, yr after yr....BUT, i can also say with absolute certainty, that if one does everything pretty correctly, and they are at the amateur level, and only a show, or a few shows in, One can and will gain 7-8 lbs....You need to read up on some Doggcrapp stuff my friend, Check out some of his guys and you will see many, many of us do it regularly....Not fat gain, im talking real muscle, when dieted down jumping a weight class or so....One of my good friends is top 3 in Canada, went from middle weight lower end, to light heavies, higer end in a little over a yr...He is no genetic freak either....Hard damn working norther boy he is...
I understand your frustrations, as i have similar ones with guys saying it cannot be done....
It can, and it does get done....
Ill guarantee, if you happen to catch any logs of my contest this yr, there will be no doubt that i have gained many a lb of muscle coming up....Not sure exactly how much, but it will be more than 8 lbs.....
Im not going to convince you of that on here, and my motto is, dont tell me what you can do, show me....Thats what i do...
Gone back to full time DC trng, and eating, and cant wait for showtime...
Maybe when one is of a smaller stature i can see your point, but when a fella has a large frame, and over 6 foot tall, it happens, a lot....
I dont know, not wanting to argue with you, but again, i get so frustrated in guys saying you cant!!!!lol...peace

Good respectful discussion guys. Both of you have good points, so my opinion is to go with the middle number so 4-6lbs per year...he he he

I guess we could come up with a formula to say the shorter you are, the less pounds per year. But then again the taller you are, the more pounds per year is required to actually visually see an improvement.

I dunno. Anyone should be perfectly content with gaining 2-3 pounds per year as a natural, or perhaps double that as non-natural. Take those numbers and add a bit if you're 6 feet or taller. I am just going by my own experience - and I wouldn't say my training sux, even though It's not dog crap. I think my brother's resume also speaks for itself. No one would ever say his training philosophy is stupid after seeing what he's done...and again, another example of 2-3 consistent pounds per year.

Let's just throw some other names up here. Ron Partlow...in the last 10 years, how much has he gained? No one is saying he doesn't know how to train, or that he should quit, but again, baby steps to get to where you want to be. How about Pat bernard? He's been placing as a middleweight at nationals for years...5 pounds per year would put him as a top end heavy...more than that and he's a super heavy? How about my buddy Che, freaky lightweight always doing well in all his shows, yet he continues to compete as a lightweight...Denis Pednault - another freaky competitor, natural too - yet he's a bantam every year he competes, and has done so for 5-6 years now...So shouldn't he at least be a welter by now? Larry Vinette...after stearing away from the Fame shows, he's been consistently in the 190s show after show....why hasn't he gotten up to 210?

Is everyone's training wrong?

And I'd like to know who your friend is that placed top 3 as a middle to a light heavy...No disrespect to him, but was he top 3 as a middle, or did he place top 3 as a light heavy. If the former, and didn't do well as a light-heavy, it only means he just didn't come in lean enough, or he weighed in before drying up, or he went from natural to non-natural.

We can disagree on this, but my point remains about Bbuilder's post - don't expect to jump from 170 to 190 in a year and obliterate the competition in a year. And I'll even add that that won't happen even going from natural to non.

I can come up with many examples of natural guys going on and basically placing no better in a higher weight class. Once you gotta compete against guys in the 190s at a high level, it becomes more than just packing on a bit of muscle to be competitive.

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Originally Posted by steve_d

I guess we could come up with a formula to say the shorter you are, the less pounds per year. But then again the taller you are, the more pounds per year is required to actually visually see an improvement.

I dunno. Anyone should be perfectly content with gaining 2-3 pounds per year as a natural, or perhaps double that as non-natural. Take those numbers and add a bit if you're 6 feet or taller. I am just going by my own experience - and I wouldn't say my training sux, even though It's not dog crap. I think my brother's resume also speaks for itself. No one would ever say his training philosophy is stupid after seeing what he's done...and again, another example of 2-3 consistent pounds per year.

Let's just throw some other names up here. Ron Partlow...in the last 10 years, how much has he gained? No one is saying he doesn't know how to train, or that he should quit, but again, baby steps to get to where you want to be. How about Pat bernard? He's been placing as a middleweight at nationals for years...5 pounds per year would put him as a top end heavy...more than that and he's a super heavy? How about my buddy Che, freaky lightweight always doing well in all his shows, yet he continues to compete as a lightweight...Denis Pednault - another freaky competitor, natural too - yet he's a bantam every year he competes, and has done so for 5-6 years now...So shouldn't he at least be a welter by now? Larry Vinette...after stearing away from the Fame shows, he's been consistently in the 190s show after show....why hasn't he gotten up to 210?

Is everyone's training wrong?

And I'd like to know who your friend is that placed top 3 as a middle to a light heavy...No disrespect to him, but was he top 3 as a middle, or did he place top 3 as a light heavy. If the former, and didn't do well as a light-heavy, it only means he just didn't come in lean enough, or he weighed in before drying up, or he went from natural to non-natural.

We can disagree on this, but my point remains about Bbuilder's post - don't expect to jump from 170 to 190 in a year and obliterate the competition in a year. And I'll even add that that won't happen even going from natural to non.

I can come up with many examples of natural guys going on and basically placing no better in a higher weight class. Once you gotta compete against guys in the 190s at a high level, it becomes more than just packing on a bit of muscle to be competitive.

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Bottom line is, there is a HUGE difference between making good lean gains, and gains in actual "stage weight" which is, essentially, dehydrated weight.

When I started dieting for my first Nationals in 2000, I was 275, and competed at 243. This past year, I started my diet at 315 and competed at 263. At 315 I looked leaner than I did at 275 ten years earlier. I gained 40 pounds of off season weight, in equal or better condition, and still only competed 20 pounds heavier.

My point being that 10 pounds of good off season weight DOES NOT equal 10 pounds on stage. It equals about 2-3 MAX or whatever it works out to. Depends on how you come in.....in the end, weight doesn't mean anything anyway.

Imagine how much you could change your shape if you just added 1 pound of ground beef to each delt and each quad sweep. That would only be 4 pounds, but imagine the difference to your silhouette.

Cheers
Ron

Couldn't agree more Ron! I was just saying this point to my wife yesterday...I was saying that personally my offseason weight seems to climb more each year, and even though I am no fatter, the dehydrated weight remains as a slow and steady climb. And you're weights have supported this fully. You compete 20 pounds heavier in ten years, which to me is an outstanding improvement.

This year, I've gotten to over 190 morning weight, which is the heaviest I've ever been. I am a good 15 pounds heavier than last year at this time, and in my opinion, leaner. At this pace, I should be close to 180 on stage next year...But again, it's not gonna happen!

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Originally Posted by steve_d

Couldn't agree more Ron! I was just saying this point to my wife yesterday...I was saying that personally my offseason weight seems to climb more each year, and even though I am no fatter, the dehydrated weight remains as a slow and steady climb. And you're weights have supported this fully. You compete 20 pounds heavier in ten years, which to me is an outstanding improvement.

This year, I've gotten to over 190 morning weight, which is the heaviest I've ever been. I am a good 15 pounds heavier than last year at this time, and in my opinion, leaner. At this pace, I should be close to 180 on stage next year...But again, it's not gonna happen!

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People like to be blind rather than facing up to reality.

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Originally Posted by steve_d

I guess we could come up with a formula to say the shorter you are, the less pounds per year. But then again the taller you are, the more pounds per year is required to actually visually see an improvement.

I dunno. Anyone should be perfectly content with gaining 2-3 pounds per year as a natural, or perhaps double that as non-natural. Take those numbers and add a bit if you're 6 feet or taller. I am just going by my own experience - and I wouldn't say my training sux, even though It's not dog crap. I think my brother's resume also speaks for itself. No one would ever say his training philosophy is stupid after seeing what he's done...and again, another example of 2-3 consistent pounds per year.

Let's just throw some other names up here. Ron Partlow...in the last 10 years, how much has he gained? No one is saying he doesn't know how to train, or that he should quit, but again, baby steps to get to where you want to be. How about Pat bernard? He's been placing as a middleweight at nationals for years...5 pounds per year would put him as a top end heavy...more than that and he's a super heavy? How about my buddy Che, freaky lightweight always doing well in all his shows, yet he continues to compete as a lightweight...Denis Pednault - another freaky competitor, natural too - yet he's a bantam every year he competes, and has done so for 5-6 years now...So shouldn't he at least be a welter by now? Larry Vinette...after stearing away from the Fame shows, he's been consistently in the 190s show after show....why hasn't he gotten up to 210?

Is everyone's training wrong?

And I'd like to know who your friend is that placed top 3 as a middle to a light heavy...No disrespect to him, but was he top 3 as a middle, or did he place top 3 as a light heavy. If the former, and didn't do well as a light-heavy, it only means he just didn't come in lean enough, or he weighed in before drying up, or he went from natural to non-natural.

We can disagree on this, but my point remains about Bbuilder's post - don't expect to jump from 170 to 190 in a year and obliterate the competition in a year. And I'll even add that that won't happen even going from natural to non.

I can come up with many examples of natural guys going on and basically placing no better in a higher weight class. Once you gotta compete against guys in the 190s at a high level, it becomes more than just packing on a bit of muscle to be competitive.

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He placed top 3 in the middles, and got 5th in light heavies...Then went back to middles, and got third once again, but way, to depleted this time...Noticeably...
Definitely dont think youre training wrong steve, nor anyone else, i havent seen anyone else train.......I am using DC guys as examples, because thats what i am most familiar with..., not saying it is be all, end all trng.
Again, i am only saying that i get frustrated hearing guys say they cannot, and again i am talking first few shows in beginning of BB attempts.Not seasoned vets....
You are correct it takes more to see an improvement in taller guys...But i believe a taller larger framed guy would gain more in a yr than a shorter, smaller framed guy would, everything being equal....

Ron, cool to see you joining the discussion..., would you say you gained 6-8 lbs of muscle per yr in your first few years of competition?? Have you ever gained 6-8 lbs in a yr?? How much was the most gained in your career in one year??
I also think the way one diets down definitely makes a difference also, in the end result....Maybe some guys try a different diet technique etc, then they may lose more muscle in his prep, than if he did a different style, One can have cortisol, or thyroid differences during prep, that would make a big difference in final result, BUT, one may have actually built that extra muscle off season, and lost more due to different conditions...Thats my opinion, anyway...???

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Originally Posted by ironwill

He placed top 3 in the middles, and got 5th in light heavies...Then went back to middles, and got third once again, but way, to depleted this time...Noticeably...
Definitely dont think youre training wrong steve, nor anyone else, i havent seen anyone else train.......I am using DC guys as examples, because thats what i am most familiar with..., not saying it is be all, end all trng.
Again, i am only saying that i get frustrated hearing guys say they cannot, and again i am talking first few shows in beginning of BB attempts.Not seasoned vets....
You are correct it takes more to see an improvement in taller guys...But i believe a taller larger framed guy would gain more in a yr than a shorter, smaller framed guy would, everything being equal....

Ron, cool to see you joining the discussion..., would you say you gained 6-8 lbs of muscle per yr in your first few years of competition?? Have you ever gained 6-8 lbs in a yr?? How much was the most gained in your career in one year??
I also think the way one diets down definitely makes a difference also, in the end result....Maybe some guys try a different diet technique etc, then they may lose more muscle in his prep, than if he did a different style, One can have cortisol, or thyroid differences during prep, that would make a big difference in final result, BUT, one may have actually built that extra muscle off season, and lost more due to different conditions...Thats my opinion, anyway...???

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Contest prep dieting strategy is for sure a major factor.

I knew a guy who basically cheated throughout his diet until the final 5-6 weeks and then had to haul ass to make it. The following year he stuck to the diet, did the cardio as he should have been doing and low and behold he came in heavier and leaner than the previous year.

He'll tell you he gained 10lbs of stage weight and I'll tell him he's full of shit.